tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post6603214302143700237..comments2024-03-15T00:12:57.489-07:00Comments on Covenant Zone: Covenantal Integritytruepeershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16401984575637492845noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-14173327647928346412007-08-14T21:12:00.000-07:002007-08-14T21:12:00.000-07:00Excellent comment, na.I'm actually sorry that I us...Excellent comment, na.<BR/><BR/>I'm actually sorry that I used the word stupid in a heated moment - though I was just trying to follow the idiom... Sorry Sean.<BR/><BR/>My admittedly quick reading of Landes (I'm not a regular reader of his blog but maybe I should become one...) is that he doesn't have a problem with Palestinian nationalism for reasons not unlike those you have given, na: real nationalism - i.e. devotion to a nation that can put forth responsible and legitimate leaders to guarantee that one nation will act with another in more or less predictable and conventional ways - provides a realistic basis for negotiations at some time in the future. But to the extent that negotiating with the Palestinians is so far a largely hopeless business - just because no Palestinian leader, as Arafat showed, has had the real authority to sign any kind of comprehensive deal with the Jews and thus legitimize their presence in what is considered Dar-al-Islam - it is the Jihad (and Sharia) that is the central stumbling block. Yes, we should try to get around that block, but it is not largely up to us (Israel and the West)truepeershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401984575637492845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-67714246769431823602007-08-14T10:59:00.000-07:002007-08-14T10:59:00.000-07:00The important point made in Landes’s post is to id...The important point made in Landes’s post is to identify the different levels at which the Israel-Palestinian conflict takes place. Those who argue that Israel should be thrown under the bus in order to sooth Muslim anger take a broad view of the situation that assumes the importance of a West vs. Islam dynamic. I agree that this is one aspect of the situation. And I also generally agree that the West sacrificing Israel (in practical terms, cutting off the US security assurance) would be a strategic and moral mistake.<BR/><BR/>While I’m sympathetic to the conclusions Landes reaches at the level of civilization-conflict, I find that it gives little guidance (or false guidance) as to what to do about the situation on the ground. The Israeli-Palestinian level doesn’t seem to interest him as much as the West-Islam conflict and I think this leads him to some vague and incorrect positions. For example, he states that Israel’s problem has been Jihad rather than a conflict between nations, explicitly denying that Israel has a problem with Palestinian nationalism. I know that Palestinian nationalism is infused with the concept of struggle and informed by religious ideas, but it is an identity and concept that is distinct from Jihad. Anyway, the practical implication of emphasizing the importance of the civilization lens is that it can lead to bad policy-making when it comes to dealing with the Palestinians. For example, if the West must stand firm and not concede, then settlements must be defended (or expanded) rather than dismantled. Removing settlements would be merely a sign of weakness. And this position would be logical at the civilization level. At the Israeli-Palestinian level the context leads to different conclusions I think. Many of the settlements are largely an economic, strategic, and moral drain on Israeli society, and the apparatus required to support them leads to unfortunate abuses of the Palestinian population. <BR/><BR/>I’m not naïve about the prospects of a stable land-for-peace deal in the near future. I’m just pointing out that what is morally and strategically advisable for Israel at the Palestinian-Israeli level is sometimes at odds with what one would recommend when taking the broader, civilization view. In other words, it’s not always ‘the Jihad, stupid’ (which seems to be the theme of the post of your response to the previous commenter). Broad thinking may be able to inform long-term alliance structures and strategies. ‘The Jihad, stupid’ thinking is likely to mislead us when confronting the down-and-dirty situation on the ground. <BR/>naAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-15109457901671852112007-08-09T23:44:00.000-07:002007-08-09T23:44:00.000-07:00Sean, Israel has withdrawn from Southern Lebanon, ...Sean, Israel has withdrawn from Southern Lebanon, from large parts of the WEst Bank, from Gaza, from the Sinai - all places it occupied because its enemies were launching attacks from there. All sorts of concessions have been made to Palestinian and other Arab forms of blackmail and more legitimate forms of negotiation - do you know nothing of the Oslo accords that Arafat eventually torpedoed, for example? Do you know who feeds the Palestinians and arms their government, and why? Are you familiar with the kinds of prisoner for hostage exchanges Israel regularly makes? And some Israeli politician or intellectual has apologized for pretty much anything you can imagine. You'd be surprised at how many Israelis are leftists who "think" like you do. Where do you read up on your history? Do you know how full of ignorant propaganda you seem to be? What you don't seem too understand is why orthodox Muslims cannot accept the existence of Israel in any shape or form, no matter what it tries to do to placate them. As Landes says, it's the Jihad (stupid).truepeershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401984575637492845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-21034345282259277812007-08-09T23:08:00.000-07:002007-08-09T23:08:00.000-07:00[....][....]Daghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10664271893389366772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-68327976319993008712007-08-09T22:28:00.000-07:002007-08-09T22:28:00.000-07:00"Israel’s experience of “withdrawing and conceding..."Israel’s experience of “withdrawing and conceding and apologizing” <BR/><BR/>Actually, thats the whole problem. Israel hasn't withdrawn, conceded, or apologized for anything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com