tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post1238372502166661312..comments2024-03-15T00:12:57.489-07:00Comments on Covenant Zone: God's eternal word is human freedomtruepeershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16401984575637492845noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-13970887790716845412007-12-17T12:19:00.000-08:002007-12-17T12:19:00.000-08:00@Muslims Against Sharia.Thanks for your comment; I...@Muslims Against Sharia.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your comment; I have responded to it <A HREF="http://covenantzone.blogspot.com/2007/12/muslims-and-free-humanity-against.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.truepeershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401984575637492845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-91127965457874971772007-11-08T02:20:00.000-08:002007-11-08T02:20:00.000-08:00mg,On specificity and vagueness, it's not an eithe...mg,<BR/><BR/>On specificity and vagueness, it's not an either/or but we need an argument about how the two go together. For example, when a country or countries draw up some kind of constitution or compact by which they will be governed, or by which they set up terms for interaction, they should want it to be somewhat specific about outlining the rules of the game, e.g. designating the various kinds of authority, but it should not be an attempt to determine the outcome of (free) interaction, or to systematize the rules in too much detail. What makes the constitution powerful is some common faith in its ability to mediate new and unforeseen conflicts. We can try to specify where this ability comes from, but to the extent the constitution's users keep finding new kinds of solutions in new contexts, there remains something about it which we cannot know in advance. Each new deferral of a conflict is a new revelation about the potential inherent at the beginning of the compact, a potential not even the constitution's founders could have known. As long as people retain faith in their covenant, in its unknown possibilities, it remains sacred, somewhat mysterious, vague if you like; and this unknowable potential gives it its ability to serve as a vehicle for interaction and negotiation so that this dialogue can reveal to the parties certain human and historical truths that allow them to gain an understanding of each other that, if they maintain a basic good faith, allows them to further develop a system in which there is greater freedom for all.<BR/><BR/>Basically, I am arguing that we can expect violence, but even more of it if we do not create some basis for those Muslims who would, to show good faith in some process of more or less peaceful interaction. If we simply say, we can put faith in no process with Muslims, we are basically declaring war on all of them, even if we dress this up in the language of "separationism". And even if we expect that at some time in the future, those Muslims who want to show good faith will probably come to reject Islam, we have no right to expect that they can come to that conclusion if we simply demand it now. We have to allow a learning process, both for them and us, demonstrate a good faith understanding that we will allow ourselves the freedom to test each other to see what is and is not possible under a constitution or compact that is suitable to mediating the kinds of conflicts and realities that exist today.<BR/><BR/>The terms of this compact should be explicit (though not too detailed: the future cannot be ironed out). We cannot, for example, have any tolerance for those who would justify violence as God's will for some sub-class of infidel humans. There can be no compact without mutual respect. So, it is certainly not my argument that we should tone down the "anti-Jihadist" criticism, if Jihad is a kind of sacrificial violence in God's name, which I think it is for many. That should be criticized unflinchingly, or more to the point resisted since criticism is wasted on some. But I do think those who are engaged in this criticism and resistance have to remind themselves that they will be going down a similar road of evil if they don't keep open the possibility to engage in good faith with a large population from which we can no longer hope to be separated in the age of globalization. Now it is easy to say that I have just said we cannot tolerate Islam, because Jihad as I have just described it is a central sacrament of Islam. But if some "muslim" wants to deny or qualify this, if some "muslim" wants to come to terms with reality today and show us infidels respect, and maybe even ally with us (for example, as happens right now in Afghanistan where the majority are with us against the Taleban), I don't want to pre-empt his freedom by saying he is just a theologically confused person who can't be trusted because he's bound to cave in when the fundamentalists start reminding him what real Islam is. I want to open a conversation in which either he or I or both of us might learn something about our fundamental humanity that even Islam can't erase, and by which Islam is thus inevitably reinterpreted, or, cast aside. I want to make him intellectually stronger so that he can resist the fundamentalist.<BR/><BR/>Tefft may not be forbidding anything. But he is saying it is a dangerous delusion to think we can dialogue with Muslims and that we can be safe with anything other than separation from Islam. As I have tried to say, I don't belive any safe kind of separation is possible, without a lot of death, and so there has to be professed the possibility of interaction with those who want to play by the rules of the modern nation-state system<BR/><BR/>You are right about Islamic "reformations". I referred to this in the post where I argued Islam has an inherent tendency to decadence, because some of its beliefs are fundamentally out of touch with human reality. But, because the decadence is resented for various reasons, there is a periodic reaction when fundamentalists try to renew the true faith, though, in turn, a pure Islamic state never survives long because the idea clashes with human reality. Somehow we have to show Muslims how they are trapped in this hopeless cycle and try to help them find a way out.<BR/><BR/><I>Do you deny that muslims are already capable of intellectual or theological debate? Its just a simple matter, that when discussing what a book says, the actual text is quite a trump card. </I><BR/><BR/>-Of course Muslims are capable, in the sense that they have more or less the same potential as other humans if given the right kind of educaiton. But, serious theological debate has been more or less outlawed in Islam, the "gates of Ijtihad" have been closed. The actual text is only a trump card if you firmly believe that we can have an unproblematic reading of it, that anyone can immediately receive the eternal and perfect word simply by opening the book. (And how long can such an idea survive in anyone open to dialogue and arguments.) What needs to be impressed on Muslim minds, however, is that they have no serious reason to think that this is the case, that they are somehow removed from any kind of historical processs that is throwing new light onto what the book means. The bottom line is that we are going to find out what Muslims really believe, sooner or later. How many, when faced with the high risk of obliteration in nuclear war, are going to continue to believe that they must interpret Jihad in the literal way you seem to imagine they must? We are in a high stakes game of poker, and it's time to start calling bluffs (preferably before the stakes get too high) if we really want to know what the other guy believes. We haven't started doing that in any serious way yet. WE are still appeasing. That's the problem. And we may well be appeasing in part because part of us actually believes the line that Muslims have no choice but to pursue Jihad even into the apocalyptic fires of Ahmadinejad's imagination. Well, if we stop appeasing, we get to find out a truth that none of us really knows yet. How many Muslims seriously believe the millennial fantasy, and how many would prefer to have grandchildren with a hope for some kind of unexciting future? And how many Westerners have the nerve to put their feet to the fire, without seeking to dominate them in a way that will never allow us, or more importantly them, to find out what they really believe.<BR/><BR/><I> But are individual muslims more likely to be swayed by people who are unapologetic about their identity or by the profusely apologizing </I><BR/><BR/>-is this really the choice? Can't we imagine a reformer with all the confidence in the world that his is the only way out?<BR/><BR/><I>The question “how can we allow muslims to enter such a free situation,” presumes that we are the oppressors. Shouldn’t, “allow” rather be “challenge”."</I><BR/><BR/>-Yes, challenge sounds better.<BR/><BR/><I>Understandably many apostates likely do conceal their true feelings, but shall they be better served by -will they trust more- a West that fantasizes about reform, or one that understands that islam must die.</I><BR/><BR/>-Well, no one key opens all doors. So, while, to hone each other's minds, we should argue about what we think the most basic or fundamental truths are, on a pragmatic level we should also recognize that we need more than one voice talking to Muslims. And then, if we engage instead of trying to hide from a conflict that has to play out sooner or later, we will learn what lines are the most appealing to Muslims. There are many things we can't know until we set up challenges that are real and consequential. And setting those up is where we should be focussing a lot of our political and intellectual energy. That's why i question arguments like Tefft's that suggest we should already know the obvious and give up on trying to change Islam.truepeershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401984575637492845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-60307660543582449462007-11-07T19:54:00.000-08:002007-11-07T19:54:00.000-08:00I have not forbid anyone from attempting to reform...I have not forbid anyone from attempting to reform islam. Neither did I notice that Teft had. –Not in that interview anyway- I take exception to the fact that the West’s understanding of, and language toward, islam is more often attacked than is ever attempted any reform of islam. Is your argument, that certain anti-Jihadist should become less specific in their criticisms in order to allow a necessary vagueness in which islam might reform in the next 1400 years. If vagueness is your solution to allow communication between we and they, then why is specificity your tact against certain anti-Jihadist? And what communication do you think possible among such vagueness? I understand that they will come, if they come, as they are, but so should we. We owe it both to ourselves and our adversaries to give honest account of our criticisms. I bear no ill will toward reformers, and so do not intend to say, “I told you so.” I am saying it now. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Islam has already reformed. The super-literalism and supra-Arabianism of jihadists is the reformed islam. They contend to replace the supposed corrupt ethnic regimes that you associate with islam with a system where a common man –though he must be a man- and a believer- might have redress of grievances. -wherein his simple reading of the koran is on par with a jurist- Intellectual or theological struggle does little good when the agreed upon parameters are themselves corrupt. Do you deny that muslims are already capable of intellectual or theological debate? Its just a simple matter, that when discussing what a book says, the actual text is quite a trump card. <BR/><BR/><BR/>I do not assume that islam’s internal enemies will always lack necessary intellectual or physical strength to cast off vaguely defined oppressors. I do however question the wisdom of switching coaches, while keeping play books.<BR/><BR/><BR/>We may not know how individuals might act. But are individual muslims more likely to be swayed by people who are unapologetic about their identity or by the profusely apologizing - I didn’t mean to call you a hypocrite- us? The hard choice that faces them does exist whether we admit it or defer to fantasies of reform. <BR/><BR/><BR/>The question “how can we allow muslims to enter such a free situation,” presumes that we are the oppressors. Shouldn’t, “allow” rather be “challenge”. I am in charge of neither a muslims internal devotion, nor the prosecution that may be faced in their country. I can only advise that if one should want to be free, then they should probably stop thinking themselves a slave. Understandably many apostates likely do conceal their true feelings, but shall they be better served by -will they trust more- a West that fantasizes about reform, or one that understands that islam must die.maccusgermanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01887574496312472556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-9153631227982717472007-11-07T00:36:00.000-08:002007-11-07T00:36:00.000-08:00maccusgermanis,Obviously Islam, as you suggest, do...maccusgermanis,<BR/><BR/>Obviously Islam, as you suggest, does have many totalitarian tendencies. It is not strictly totalitarian, in the sense that it has no single, centralized leadership, but to the extent it lacks a free exchange of ideas, many disputes among the various camps of Islam quickly devolve into brutal power struggles and do not become great intellectual or theological struggles.<BR/><BR/>You look at these brutal power struggles and sympathize with the idea of moving beyond all that by destroying Islam before it destroys all its people. Maybe this will happen one day. But I'm still left wondering how. How will the necessary learning process unfold - learning that life need not be only a choice among totalitarian masters - if people don't have some kind of freedom to test the waters and fight over uncertain alternative possibilities? Even if the logical end result is to reject Islam, how can people come to this conclusion without some freedom to "reform" Islam first?<BR/><BR/>You say the outcome of any internal Islamic dispute is pre-ordained, in favor of tough guy fundamentalism. The rest, whom you insist on calling munafiq, hypocrites, will never have the intellectual or other strength to defeat their oppressors. Maybe you're right, even if never is a long time. But I really don't see how we can know in advance. We can't know how Muslims will act in the kind of unprecedented world-threatening situations that will exist in future, especially if we get creative about dividing Islam, supporting one side or another in Islam's civil wars. We can't know how many Muslims, connected to today's global media, when faced with a clear choice between supporting some Taleban-like gang with nukes, or supporting one or another possible alternative (say, a movement for mass apostasy, or a movement for liberalization that leaves religious identity a question for free individuals) will choose which. <BR/><BR/>You may be right that even if we get very smart in our engagements and in developing strategies for dividing the Muslim world between fundamentalists and reformers/"hypocrites", that the fundamentalists will win out. It is a fair hypothesis. We may eventually have near incontrovertible reason to believe that there really is no hope for reform of Islam.<BR/><BR/>But, at present, it seems clear to me that many people, including many Muslims, haven't learned that lesson yet. And this pragmatic reality must be respected for there may be little hope to move in any direction without bringing a lot of these people on board. And those who are not convinced by your logic may turn out right too, if they are suitably determined to pursue their moderate agendas, to fight hard in face of conventional wisdom and logic about what all the words in the Koran must say. If people may be willing to fight for some reform agenda, then we need to make opportunities for this to happen so that a true learning process will unfold. Only through the experience of events - how many events I don't know - when something happens, will enough minds come to the revelations by which we will really know enough about what is and is not possible for Islam. You may be already totally convinced, but even you will need further events to convince others of your logic. You can call this evil, an unnecessary waiting for further proof of Islamic evil; but I state it simply as a pragmatic fact. Pure reason alone can't change yet uncertain minds, whether Islamic or Western. Only seeing what we can't yet see will do that, and so we all have a responsibility to fight for positive events, and revelations, if at all possible, over more bloody ones.<BR/><BR/>No extreme "solution" can be implemented as a first policy, especially not in a world that has become allergic to mass killing and total war. And I think that's something to be happy about. Western society needs to renew itself in various ways and it can't do this by a simple rush to face down Jihadi violence, or by some attempt to put Islam out of sight out of mind. There has to be some kind of interaction that serves as a learning process by which people can see again the true nature and wisdsom of the Western values that can motivate an ongoing commitment to expand human freedom. These values cannot be renewed by simply denying they can ever be appreciated in any way by real Muslims. Their ultimate defense must lie in assumptions that all human beings, notwithstanding their very real cultural, ideological, and religious blinkers and differences, share some minimal core humanity in common; and that our Western values are best because they stem from a true appreciation of this fundamental, if minimal, human truth. <BR/><BR/>But this is to say there must be a possibility, how small or large we can't know in advance, that even Muslims, given a chance to ally with us in the cause of freedom, might come to appreciate something of the fundamental humanity they share with us and that this might have such a powerful effect on them that they question certain Islamic assumptions about a fundamental divide between believers and infidels. Now that questioning might well take the form of apostasy. But if we see that this questioning must be free, that it cannot be predetermined, that its form and content can't be known in advance by us or anyone else, we have to leave open the possibility that it will lead to a significant movement for the reform of Islam.<BR/><BR/>You say I "speak of showing nominal muslims a way out, while insisting that they be called by a historically oppressive name." But I insist on nothing of the sort. I only insist that if I want Muslims to become freer, I can't pretend to know the outcome of that freedom, I can't pretend to know by what name they can or should go. I can only pretend to know and to defend the difference between freedom of choice and totalitarian despotism.<BR/><BR/>Will this way of thinking lead me to help feed "moderate" and naive Muslims to the fundamentalist wolves? Perhaps. It is certainly a possibility that needs to be drawn to attention. The answer, it seems to me, is to make it perfectly clear to all with whom we deal that we are quite consciously encouraging a civil war in the Islamic world and simply asking people to take sides in a very dangerous struggle for freedom (because the appeasing alternatives are even more dangerous).<BR/><BR/>And if we are to become at all trustworthy in such a struggle, there must be a major shift in public opinion so that we have sizeable support for our freedom struggles within Western and other non-Islamic countries. And how can such a shift ever happen if we don't succeed in framing the struggle in terms of our modern, global values and their defense. And I just can't imagine the world signing on to any struggle that doesn't assume that even Muslims are capable of joining us, of fighting for their freedom whatever illogical (to our minds) reform agendas they attempt through an ongoing trial and error learning process. If we start by saying that "Muslim" freedom can only exist when they are self-professed apostates, then that freedom doesn't really exist. A successful conversion must be a free choice. Otherwise, it's like asking a man to join a privileged club, on club terms, and then to enjoy the freedoms and privileges of the club in any way other than doing anything that recognizes the kind of man he has always been. It seems to me that a successful assimilation must entail the candidate finding the truth of what he has always been through open-ended engagement with the truth of the other.<BR/><BR/><I>The more engaged we become, the more clear we must be about who is, is not, and is only potentially an ally. </I><BR/><BR/>-I agree<BR/><BR/><I>If the munafiq can overlook 1400 years of dhimmi beating tradition, then why should we fret over what to call them? </I><BR/><BR/>-Well, if he is able to say that dhimmitude was a historical practice that makes no sense and is not desirable in the modern age, if he is able to say that even eternal and uncreated Koran must reveal its truth to Muslims in a historically open-ended process (if he has the mind open to such a paradoxical possibility, to theological insights emerging from a human reality that the Koran cannot predetermine), and not from some impossible end of history viewpoint, then we have a basis for negotiation and alliances that could be ruined if we are not diplomatic about what we call them.<BR/><BR/><I>Should a runaway slave rather be called a free man, or even as he exhibits his freedom, still a slave?</I> <BR/><BR/>-he should be given a chance to fight in defense of his freedom. If he doesn't trust us he will keep running like a slave. If we can trust him as a free man, we will know when he puts his life on the line for our shared cause, not simply with an eye to using us for personal gain, but in a clear case of risking his life to defend another's freedom, with little else but freedom being on the line. How can we allow Muslims to enter such a free situation? That is the question, it seems to me.<BR/><BR/><I>If the text does not change then you must always fear that somewhere, someone might have an actual education that makes clear sense of written words.</I><BR/><BR/>-Yes, the truth is that our choice is not for the perfect, but between the bad and the worse. I hope for mass conversion tomorrow, but I can't say I think it likely. As long as anyone takes Islam seriously, the fundamentalist problem will probably always be with us. But is this problem better challenged by engaging minds from within - demanding Muslims negotiate with us the risks we pose to each other, that we let certain frank political realities mediate the interpretation of Islam - or by demanding, more or less violently, that change be solely forced from without, that negotiations and freedoms are only possible when Muslims become apostate? And can the West live with the violent consequences that are likely to follow a hard line if we don't seriously try "reform" first? Maybe we will get over our present guilt and see the necessity and rightness of killing millions. But I doubt it, and I don't want it.truepeershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401984575637492845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-41143318285072291412007-11-06T14:56:00.000-08:002007-11-06T14:56:00.000-08:00To call oneself “one who submits” is to clearly co...To call oneself “one who submits” is to clearly communicate that the first of your daily choices is already settled. The decision that remains is how to obey. The false distinction between “one who submits” to what the koran is known to say (islamofascist) and “one who submits” to vague notions of moderation (moderate muslim) places the latter under the power of the former. Each claims adherence that only one demonstrates. It is you that assumes the true adherent to be a robot. The true adherent has read, understood and demonstrated an ability to adapt the murderous aims of islam to modern technology, while the “moderate” is stammering “does not compute.” A “moderate” has not submitted to the koran, while perfectly happy to robotically mimic the rites of a murderous tradition. A “moderate” is not a muslim. <BR/><BR/>The point about the hospitals did refer to the Holy Land Foundation. Why wouldn’t a wine drinking muslim give toward a charity that pledged to build hospitals? Especially when a more pious brother points out the munafiq’s shortcomings. Apostates are not susceptible to the same type of shakedown. The munafiq, whom Western media prefers to call moderate muslims, give tacit approval and plausible deniability to the violent actions of real muslims. The only way that munafiq will be free of this is to know that they do not submit and then choose how to resist. Islam must die. It is the “leaving aside” of this identity crisis that indulges the “fantasy” of moderation.<BR/><BR/>A nominal muslim that hopes to “maintain some kind of loyalty to their own people” is not submitted to the concept of the umma. Islam does not allow such loyalty to one’s own people. This is both another reason for the death of ,and a demonstrated weakness within, islam.<BR/><BR/>You speak of showing nominal muslims a way out, while insisting that they be called by a historically oppressive name. Is it more of an impasse to realize and freely call a munafiq by their demonstrated name, or to continue to call them by that which does more define a common ideological adversary? Which is a more realistic way out? <BR/><BR/>Compromises are made necessary by, and must be more clearly defined commensurate with proximity. The more that you wish not to name islam as the fundamental problem, the more that your solution does rely on the “water tight wall” of which you have accused others of dreaming. The more engaged we become, the more clear we must be about who is, is not, and is only potentially an ally. If the munafiq can overlook 1400 years of dhimmi beating tradition, then why should we fret over what to call them? It won’t phase them and we send a clear signal of which values we are opposed. If they wish to overlook the fact that real muslims recognize their departure then let them also overlook that we call them munafiq. Should a runaway slave rather be called a free man, or even as he exhibits his freedom, still a slave? <BR/><BR/>Re-interpretation is no way out. The commitment to text of ideas that should be communicated through time must have been quite radical in its time, since even now it struggles to be accepted. Re-interpretation is open to re-interpretation and only ever represents the fantasy of what one had rather the text say. If the text does not change then you must always fear that somewhere, someone might have an actual education that makes clear sense of written words.maccusgermanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01887574496312472556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-29097784649498849712007-11-06T01:27:00.000-08:002007-11-06T01:27:00.000-08:00“Muslim” - "one who submits"... To order your own ...<I>“Muslim” - "one who submits"... To order your own life is the act of an apostate or a munafiq.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, I have no trouble, generally, with Christians who want to obey God's will. That's because I think their religious ideas are generally true, for example the idea that God must want us to be free even as that entails obeying certain realities, or natural laws. Christian truth is grounded in a true understanding of our anthropology. A human slave, however downtrodden, cannot be just a robot obeying carefully defined orders. At a minimum, he must every day make the choice of whether to obey, how to obey, or whether to die. Freedom, though always restrained by others, is inherent in the human condition and no false theology can eliminate this fact. So, again, I would ask whether you are taking the fantasy of Islam's unquestioning submission too literally. Many Muslims do attempt to live up to that fantasy, but practically that does not allow them to deny a reality that requires them to think and decide.<BR/><BR/><I>So if it’s neither you nor I that hopes for and plans to be a hypocrite, then why should you assume such from a nominal muslim? Of the conditions that might allow reform and encourage apostacy, is not included the pretense that there is no conflict between we and they, or within themselves.</I><BR/><BR/>-I think you're right to suggest that we need to be doing more to make explicit the conflicts we are struggling with. I am only disagreeing, i think, on how we might formulate the terms of these conflicts. My terms would entail pressuring people to make all kinds of choices (for example, making it very painful for those who do choose explosives over hospitals), yet leaving aside any ultimate questions about how people must understand their identities. This seem hypocritical to you, but to my mind there is a need to provide for the necessary muddy compromises and things left unsaid by which any politics inevitably works. A new degree of freedom for the Muslim world, or for any society, can only come about around a degree of uncertainty about what can be done in a new kind of political marketplace. And if you start by trying to determine entirely the terms of that marketplace, or, in this case, saying to Muslims there can be no new political marketplace as long as you remain Muslims, then I think you create an impasse, one that will soon have little to do with people questioning competing faith claims and more to do with basic existential questions - mere survival - that demand loyalty to those who will lead the "Muslims" against the rest of hte world.<BR/><BR/>I think it's important for us to think seriously about giving Muslims a realistic way out, which will always entail anticipating, but never entirely finalizing, the terms of some shared transcendence of our and their conflicts in some future geopolitical order. And I can't see how demanding a blanket proscription of Islam will engender this. What you call hypocrisy, I would probably see as the fact that more than one kind of real human truth comes into play in any major conflict. For starters, there are a billion odd people who call themselves Muslims, among whom there are many whom I imagine want both greater freedoms or wealth, and an ability to maintain some kind of loyalty to their own people vis a vis the rest of the world, and especially in relation to the leaders of the global economy. Asking them to give up their pragmatic loyalty to their own people (which, like it or not, takes, to some degree, the form of loyalty to "Islam") , in exchange for greater freedom is a non-starter - since one can only have freedom within society, not apart from it - unless we are going to find new homes and societies for all of them, somewhere safely apart from the rest of that billion+ Muslim people. <BR/><BR/>A realistic way out for many will require that they remain "Muslims" even as they work - from need to survive in the global economy - to enjoy and defend freedoms that will allow for an evolution in the nature of their loyalty to their own people, an evolution towards the idea that loyalty means acting as the guarantor for the other guy's market freedom, in matters religion, politics, economics, etc., even when you disagree with him. Those Pakistanis currently protesting to maintain constitutional freedoms are perhaps an example. They may be few. But even if there is only one Muslim freedom lover, we should start with him and draw our lines accordingly. <BR/><BR/>Most generally, we should be defining our conflicts in terms of those who would justify political violence (other than in clear self-defense, or defense of the free market) and those who refuse to recognize its legitimacy except in defense of freedom. You can reply, but this is the same as saying we should define the conflict in terms of Islam vs. Freedom. But, pragmatically, it is not the same thing. And pragmatic truths are just as true, if differently true, than (theo)logical truths. I don't see that as a hypocritical statement but rather an attempt to articulate a fundamental paradox that there is more than one kind of truth at play in human conflicts.<BR/><BR/><I>The assumption that we can co-exist when so much islamic tradition and recent history contradicts such assumption is to invite a disorderly slaughter.</I><BR/><BR/>-You may be right, like the best stock market traders who are right fifty-five percent of the time; but for just that reason I'd argue you have no right not to doubt it. The future is not knowable in advance simply on account of past trends, even assuming we have read them correctly, for the reason that any compelling reading changes the behaviour of actors going forward, thus discounting the reliability of past trends. And, if we are willing to take risks, we further change the odds, because our risks impact the decisions of the other players, like bluffing in poker. In any case, the possibly implicit assumption here that human society can ever be anything other than conflict-ridden may itself be the seed of a disorderly slaughter. Co-existence as I understand it can never be anything other than managing conflicts. If you want to argue that these conflicts can only be understood in apocalpytic terms (either for Islam or for us) you haven't yet convinced me why. Because the Koran says so is not convincing, because any reading of any book always involves some kind of re-interpretation, whether this is admitted or not.<BR/><BR/><I>A “wall” should not (and in fact can not) be “water tight,” but it can mark clearly a line from which we have no intention of retreating.<BR/><BR/>The charge of undue separation and lack of engagement is out of place in your comments about Teft’s interview. Did he not add a nominal muslim to his mailing list? Did he anywhere in the interview call for the “water tight wall” that you now refer?</I><BR/><BR/>-this is a good correction. We do need to draw all kinds of lines from which we won't retreat; and I don't want to suggest I know exactly what kind of walls Tefft would defend. Again, it is all a question of how we define these lines. I entirely agree that refusing to acknowledge the existence of fundamental conflicts is potentially deadly. But if you want a war, you have no choice but to negotiate the terms and lines with the other side.truepeershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401984575637492845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-10676715272316460462007-11-05T15:59:00.000-08:002007-11-05T15:59:00.000-08:00Can one be a "Muslim" without being a violent Jiha...Can one be a "Muslim" without being a violent Jihadist or a Sharia advocate? <BR/>No. <BR/>“Muslim” - "one who submits" http://www.etymonline.com<BR/>/index.php?term=Muslim<BR/><BR/>To order your own life is the act of an apostate or a munafiq. It is not the act of “one who submits” to the violent and hateful teachings of the koran. We do those nominal muslims, that struggle to resovle contradictions with ambiguous deference to carefully re-crafted historical context, no service by pretense that, by sacrifice of truth, islam can be moderated. We ill equip them to meet the true muslim that will point out the same truth, but to different conclusion. “Contradiction, ambiguity, and deference to [psuedo]historical context” all equal further dollars pledged to the building of hospitals in Gaza, that instead buy explosives for Hamas. <BR/><BR/>So if it’s neither you nor I that hopes for and plans to be a hypocrite, then why should you assume such from a nominal muslim? Of the conditions that might allow reform and encourage apostacy, is not included the pretense that there is no conflict between we and they, or within themselves. I respect most the mind of those that have become apostate, the heart of those that foolishly hope for reform, and the resolve of those that will meet us in eventual battle. (psuedo-palis hiding behind skirts and chickenshit homicide bombers don’t make the list) None of them need to be confused about who we are, or of what we are capable. Separation and distinction are the first steps toward resolution, whether that resolution be that which is ameniable to all parties or that dictated by a superior force. The assumption that we can co-exist when so much islamic tradition and recent history contradicts such assumption is to invite a disorderly slaughter. A “wall” should not (and in fact can not) be “water tight,” but it can mark clearly a line from which we have no intention of retreating.<BR/><BR/>The charge of undue separation and lack of engagement is out of place in your comments about Teft’s interview. Did he not add a nominal muslim to his mailing list? Did he anywhere in the interview call for the “water tight wall” that you now refer? The one mistake I noted was that, while recognising terror as a tactic, he did not recognise muslims as only mediums of a conflict that shall reoccur until islam has ceased to exist. The conflict that presents itself is of the koran, and is islam. The muslim world has already been through a relatively modern process of moderation to which salafism is the leading reaction against. To say that islam is as I have stated, but that I am insincere in stating that islam must die, is to willfully obscure a truth. Do what you will in the medium term concerning the varying adherance of the mediums, but as long as the faith exists, somewhere, someone might actually believe it. Shall we instead say that honesty must die?maccusgermanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01887574496312472556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-81761955237015329252007-11-04T12:26:00.000-08:002007-11-04T12:26:00.000-08:00maccus,thanks for the comment. I don't think the d...maccus,<BR/><BR/>thanks for the comment. I don't think the debate is so much about what the Koran says (it would be very hard to argue it is not full of hate towards the non-Muslim), as about how can we live together with Muslims in this day and age. Can one be a "Muslim" without being a violent Jihadist or a Sharia advocate? Perhaps, perhaps not. How much contradiction and ambiguity, and deference to historical context, can a "Muslim" live with? But it's not for you or me to know since we're not trying to be (non-violent) "Muslims". I expect that if given the necessary freedom, a lot of people will leave Islam (my intuition, only, is that reform is going to be a very hard road); some will try to reform it to meet the expectations of the modern world. Some will dig in and fight, and we should fight back. In either of the first two cases, what are the conditions for allowing this reform or apostasy to happen? That is the question we need to put before our minds, unless we are willing to try to build a water tight wall between us and them, with all the horrors and dangers that will entail. I have nothing against accentuating the stark differences between our values and theirs. I am only against assuming that we know exactly how they can and will formulate their "Muslim" or post-Muslim values in a future where they choose to recognize the legitimacy of the present global economic and nation-state system, and the requirements of these systems for free and responsible human beings and transparent governments.<BR/><BR/>Of course it's a risk to try to engage with Muslims. They may never respect us, though that's unlikely to be entirely the case, to the degree they can't live without us. But if refusing the risk means warring with all those who are not willing to quit Islam, is that something our culture can live with? We have so much guilt in the West now, we need find ways to positively re-assert our values, to attract converts to the high road. Saying Islam must end now, is not to grapple seriously with what we can or should do in the medium term, leaving aside all dreams of great solutions in a future we won't be around to negotiate. Right now the choice is global war for the foreseeable future, or negotiation with "Muslims". No doubt we will need some of both, and hence minds open to the ambiguities therein.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-27701201552803333722007-11-02T16:09:00.000-07:002007-11-02T16:09:00.000-07:00People do identify themselves as having been born ...People do identify themselves as having been born to various ideologies, but I’ve yet to hear a compelling statement of faith from a newborn. A nominal muslim’s admission that their parents were muslim is not itself “submission.” People neither begin with knowledge of the koran, nor the daily necessities of life. It must be respected that muslims have chosen, whether for need to assimilate into their culture or true conviction, to identify themselves with all the horrible things the koran does say. <BR/><BR/>The truth that you state, that “there were plenty of clan and tribal leaders ….who where ready to ally with the West” -willing to subvert their professed faith for mutual benefit of themselves and we kuffar- is actually evidence that we should draw the distinction between our values and islam more starkly rather than less. In fact relatively “good” Nazis did exist. But, their “goodness” was subject to their need to assimilate with a cultural fad that pervaded their time. And in our own time, the undeniable “goodness” of the munafiq and their apologizing brethren of the West is occluded by a tactical need to avoid mentioning that islam may have something to do with the mad ravings of that illiterate pedophille -who is more commonly referred to as mo’.<BR/><BR/>I have some sympathy with your assumption that the relative success of a muslim is owed more to their adoption of Western values than their own submission, but recognize that such knowingly compromised persons must inevitably be forced to choose between further “pragmatic” subversion of their faith or redemption. A relatively successful muslim is actually quite dangerous, having more means than his more pious brethren, while still attempting to light his jihadist fuse with sparks from the koran. Adherents do make, however imperfect, attempts to adhere to their faith. Salfist are clear in their distinctions, and we who invite apostasy -either knowingly or unknowingly- must be equally clear. Islam must die.<BR/><BR/>Muslims face a choice between submission to a murderous pedophile’s lies, reconciliation to truth, or further procrastination. We do them no service by pretending that the koran might “seem” to say something different –with a decoder ring -a muslim popery – or standing on your head, holding your tongue just right.maccusgermanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01887574496312472556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-21617756801828408342007-10-31T15:03:00.000-07:002007-10-31T15:03:00.000-07:00Yes, I noticed the engagement with my post, and th...Yes, I noticed the engagement with my post, and the way you articulated it in a very powerful and nuanced way with a genuinely generative account of contemporary Islam and the complexities of our relation to it. It will be an important reference point for me. (It also applies perfectly to Fitzgerald and others at NER)<BR/><BR/>AdamAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-70898582634546444262007-10-31T11:38:00.000-07:002007-10-31T11:38:00.000-07:00Thanks AdamThis issue is threatening to pull our c...Thanks Adam<BR/><BR/>This issue is threatening to pull our current blogging alliance apart, hence my frank and quickly-written tone.<BR/><BR/>Of course you of all people will recognize the <A HREF="http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/" REL="nofollow">GA writers</A> to whom this post is indebted. I don't fill up the posts with links and references because sometimes it is best to try to communicate ideas as simply as one can. I don't know if I succeeded in well translating your recent post on theme of <A HREF="http://dev.cdh.ucla.edu/GABlog/?p=83" REL="nofollow">"ostensives all the way down"</A>. I'd be happy to hear any thoughts on the matter.truepeershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401984575637492845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25624602.post-2012046124297434302007-10-31T08:11:00.000-07:002007-10-31T08:11:00.000-07:00John,I just thought I'd "drop in" and say how help...John,<BR/><BR/>I just thought I'd "drop in" and say how helpful and illuminating I found this post to be. I'm going to link it to the GaBlog<BR/><BR/>AdamAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com